Utah Free Press

Glenn Beck: Hung By the Neck

By Richard Okelberry (Note: This Essay was originally published at KVNU’s, For the People Blog.) 

I would like to bring up for discussion the question; when can bloggers go too far and cross the line between free speech and making terroristic threats?  At what point should the authorities be involved?  As an example, here are just two statements made by Cliff Lyon of the hate organization One Utah.

“I’m interested in decapitating people who think their religious opinions belong in government.” – Cliff Lyon

“One of the Greatest American Traitors is a Mormon.   This pitiful scum sucking pig needs to be hung by the neck.” - Cliff Lyon speaking about Glenn Beck

After reading the first quote my wife made me bring the shotgun in from the garage for protection, since the threat was made in response to one of my comments.  Now Cliff Lyon is not simply a wacko with a computer but a well connected member of the Democratic Party who even served as the Communications Director for ex-SLC Mayor Rocky Anderson.  He also claims to have been employed as a campaign manager for several (presumably Democratic Party) campaigns.

Like many on the fringe left Cliff Lyon has openly embraced a hatred for religion.  This new uprising of bigotry towards people of faith can only be compared to the similar rising of hatred towards Jews in Nazi Germany.  I do not make this comparison lightly.  It appears that Cliff Lyon believes as Hitler did with the Jews, that the majority of society’s problems have been cause by those with a faith in God.  To this end his web site OneUtah.org had 274 posts under “Religious Fundamentalism” as of last March alone (this number does not include posts under just “Religion”) and is personally responsible for the following quotes;

“Yo Church Boy. Its not about your feelings or revulsion.  We all hate abortions!” – Cliff Lyon

“Your religious arrogance sickens me.” – Cliff Lyon

“We are a God damned Secular Nation for God damned good reason.” – Cliff Lyon

“I am very, very angry about the fact that the religious right, with Rove’s help have found a very loud voice in US politics. We have been an embarrassment among the entire industrialized (progressive) world since Reagan and these kinds of dicussion demonstrate that we are getting worse….  So when I say ‘SHUT UP’, I am speaking to each and every asshole who drags his or her religious beliefs out into the public like dirty underwear. It may smell good to you, but it actually stinks to everyone else…. I have as much a right to be OFFENDED by your evangelism as you have to worship.” – Cliff Lyon

“My basic premise is that one as an American voter, one SHOULD check his/her religion/faith at the door and that religions and churches should stay the hell out of politics, especially now that we have seen how very destructive has been the religious pandering of the Bush/Cheney/Rove administration.” – Cliff Lyon

“Frankly, bragging about one’s religion makes me sick.” – Cliff Lyon

Your 17-year old daughter gang rapped by 5 guys. – a Mexican, an Irishman, a Jew, a midget, and a fat greasy white man. She hopes and prays she’s not pregnant. But she is too afraid to talk about the rape because one of the guys has threatened to kill her little brother if she tells…and she really like the Jew boy anyway.” – Cliff Lyon

Making a threat against someone is one thing, but under current Hate Crimes legislation, doing so in conjunction with hate speech only compounds the crime.  While I am not an attorney, I want to post here what the law in Utah says on the subject and open for discussion whether Cliff Lyon actually crossed the line into criminality.

76-5-107  Terroristic threat — Penalty.

(1)  A person commits a terroristic threat if he threatens to commit any offense involving bodily injury, death, or substantial property damage, and: (b)  he acts with intent to: (i)  intimidate or coerce a civilian population or to influence or affect the conduct of a government or a unit of government; (iii)  place a person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury, substantial bodily injury, or death;

(2) (a)  A violation of Subsection (1)(a) or (1)(b)(i) is a second degree felony.

76-3-203.3. Penalty for hate crimes — Civil rights violation.
As used in this section:
(1) “Primary offense” means those offenses provided in Subsection (4).
(2) (a) A person who commits any primary offense with the intent to intimidate or terrorize another person or with reason to believe that his action would intimidate or terrorize that person is subject to Subsection (2)(b).
(b) (i) A class C misdemeanor primary offense is a class B misdemeanor; and
(ii) a class B misdemeanor primary offense is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) “Intimidate or terrorize” means an act which causes the person to fear for his physical safety or damages the property of that person or another. The act must be accompanied with the intent to cause or has the effect of causing a person to reasonably fear to freely exercise or enjoy any right secured by the Constitution or laws of the state or by the Constitution or laws of the United States.

Regardless, I think it would be a good idea for law enforcement to keep a close eye on the One Utah hate group.  While their name may seem inclusive make no mistake, it is the mission of Cliff Lyon and several of his key contributors to use the OneUtah.org web site to eliminate religion from our society through hate.  In fact I would argue that it is statements like these made by Cliff Lyon that might be considered “marching orders” for the radical fringe left.  A good test to the legality of such a statement is to ask if the Secret Service would be knocking on the door of any individual for making such a statement about being hung be the neck towards the President of the United States.

Certainly it can be said without much debate that Cliff Lyon regularly attempts to intimidate people who disagree with his authoritarian ideals, especially those of faith.  He has even referred to such intimidation as, “bringing the hammer down.”  The question here; is such intimidation and threatening language illegal under our laws or is it protected as free speech under the Constitution?

(These are the comments made by readers at KVNU For the People following the original publication of this essay.)

•61 comments to Glenn Beck: Hung By the Neck

• Tyler Riggs
April 15th, 2009 at 2:45 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Rich,
I’d advise that you just ignore and quit visiting OneUtah. The site is a joke filled with like minded individuals who prefer to stroke each other’s hate filled hearts.

• Rich Okelberry
April 15th, 2009 at 2:50 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Agreed, Tyler.

• rmwarnick
April 15th, 2009 at 3:41 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
I’d like to invite Tyler Riggs to comment on One Utah and make his case. It’s an open forum.

• Tyler Riggs
April 15th, 2009 at 4:01 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Mr. Warnick, I’ll decline your invitation. I understand and respect that it’s an open forum at One Utah, but I personally do not like the tone over there so I don’t frequent the site. Thank you for the invite though.

• Chilli
April 15th, 2009 at 4:22 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
I agree with Tyler, I went over to the OneUtah site and all I saw was the same 20 people with the same pointless ranting. Life’s to short to spend it entirely (3000 posts, 15 original thoughts) on a silly little blog thinking your hate is changing the world for better. Good luck to them.

• Federal Farmer
April 15th, 2009 at 5:11 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
I occasionally visit OneUtah and comment on some of the threads. While I may disagree with their opinions, I think that both Richard Warnick and Becky Stauffer are thoughtful and reasonable in their posts. Cliff Lyon, however, is a truly hateful and malicious individual; and I can’t believe that some people actually take him seriously.

• Becky
April 15th, 2009 at 6:28 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
RO,
You think we’re all haters of religious practioners at OneUtah, but when I invited you to my conference weekend post of A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, your silence was deafening. And you can’t pay a visit to OneUtah without aiming your hyperbole at me, whether I’m even involved on the thread or not. What’s your deal with me, RO? By the way, did you also tell your wife how you threatened to show up with a film crew to surprise me? Does she approve of your stalking plans?
Your feigned fear of Cliff is ludicrous to all of us. Just like mine is of you.

• Tim Carter
April 15th, 2009 at 7:43 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
I visit OneUtah also and don’t have a problem with any of their content or opinions. It is an open forum. I don’t agree with eveything, but can handle opposing opinions. That is what makes this country great. We need more of this.I don’t think this pissing match needs to bleed over to FTP, though. I think if your subject was more general, I would get it. This post is very specific and targeted and doesn’t belong on this blog.Rich, I think if you are going to post this stuff, use your own blog. Don’t abuse your ‘bully pulpit’ preferred poster status here at http://FTP. It is pretty obvious this is personal between you and Cliff. You are not innocent in this matter. You have posted some pretty offensive stuff in your own way.
“While their name may seem inclusive make no mistake, it is the mission of Cliff Lyon and several of his key contributors to use the OneUtah.org web site to eliminate religion from our society through hate.”
Yeah Rich, you are not innocent in this exchange. Fed is right, I don’t see how anyone can take either one of you very serious. And you know what they say about the first on to throw down the first ‘Nazi” comparison in a debate…
“This new uprising of bigotry towards people of faith can only be compared to the similar rising of hatred towards Jews in Nazi Germany.”
You post at OneUtah quite a bit Rich and then cry ‘foul’ over here at FTP? I don’t get it.

• Chase
April 15th, 2009 at 8:46 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
It is more than a little upsetting to hear a grown man talk like that. It seems that the spoiled kids have grown up. Oh, by the way, separation of church and state was found in the communist manifesto. Marx, heard of him? Surely not the Constitution. In fact, Mr. Jefferson gave many lectures stating the exact opposite. When God is removed from a government, it has no moral foundation to build on. It is a damn shame we all can’t read isn’t it? Maybe we could learn just as the first public school system taught reading……..from the New Testament. (hmmm, could I possibly right?) Before folks hate any longer, we could learn our founding fathers intentions and words. Ignorance is so dangerous. God Bless us all, the blood of tyrants my friends.

• Cliff
April 15th, 2009 at 9:18 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Wow Okelberries,
You’ve been very busy. I am honored.
In the rough and tumble of political blogging I suppose being the subject of such an extensive character evaluation is par for the course, right?
I have always been clear about my willingness to suffer personal criticism for the cause. Since Rove burst onto the scene it would be naive to think that one could attack the right and somehow be spared the viciousness of the same.
The penalty for treason is hanging. The idea that Glenn Beck’s behavior is treasonous is not my invention though I do believe Glenn Beck is a traitor as is Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Addington and many others. Unfortunatly, while shared by so many, it is still an opinion pending investigation. And as much as I would like to see them all hang, I, like you Richard am against capital punishment. Its looking like the World Court will get them first.
My use of the word decapitation as a literary device — a metaphor at worse — is unlikely to invite much more attention from the Secret Service than we have already received for publishing the original impeachment papers for Nixon. I will admit however given your religious disposition that crucifixion might have been a better choice of words.
But it makes me really uncomfortable when you bring your wife into our discussion whenever things heat up. Its not fair to her and its a show-stopper for me. Is that like a Kansas thing?
If it is true that,
After reading the first quote my wife made me bring the shotgun in from the garage for protection
…then I think we should simply cease and desist. Its gone too far. I may have underestimated your emotional vulnerablity. Another reason to check your religion at the door when discussing politics.
I think I also misinterpreted as a cheap tactic, your attempt to associate yourself with the persecution of the Jews under Hitler (with me playing the part of Hitler). Apparently, that was no tactic.
This new uprising of bigotry towards people of faith can only be compared to the similar rising of hatred towards Jews in Nazi Germany.
For the record, I’d just like to re-state my position on religion in the fuller context of American history by associating myself with our Founding Fathers who believed passionately that religion should be kept as far away from politics as possible. When I wrote “Christians Should Just Shut Up,” I was on one level paraphrasing in modern vernacular the chorus of Jefferson, Adams, Madison and Franklin among others. (I should also point out that it was good strategic advice in retrospect as well.)
So thats all for now. And thank you again.
I do beg you all not to associate my comments in anyway with the other authors of OneUtah as a public forum and I remind you Richard (and all of your from Utah reading this) that you are invited to become a OneUtah author with no restrictions whatsoever. I have been clear that my relationship to that blog is not as owner, but as a steward of a public square. I would receive favorably any petition to transfer the cost and operational responsibilities for OneUtah to someone else or group.

• Jesse Harris
April 15th, 2009 at 10:24 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Move along, there’s nothing to see here. Cliff will always be inciteful and vitrolic. It’s the way he is. Once you call him on it, he tones it down a bit (as we see here). Don’t count on that to have much long-term effect, though. This is a guy who seriously advocated bullying in junior high schools if it means silencing political opponents. He feeds on that negative attention. Just let him preach to his One(ShortofaSixPack)Utah choir and pay him no heed.

• Rich Okelberry
April 15th, 2009 at 10:44 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Federal Farmer,
I used to agree with you about Richard Warnick and considered him someone who was merely obsessed with Bush. Unfortunately that all changed for me when during one discussion about the Israeli / Palestinian conflict he was able to quickly produce a list of Jewish Americans with dual citizenship that he felt had too much “influence” over our foreign policy. Since then I have questioned his anti-Semitic leanings.
As for Becky Stauffer, while she regularly has her little jabs about the Mormon faith she does usually keep to personal attacks. Though I must say that when pushed, she has never been willing to criticize or reject any of Cliff Lyons bigoted teachings.
Unfortunately the other primary author at OneUtah, Shane Smith not mentioned in the essay, can be every bit as bigoted towards religion but is usually smart enough to keep from making even veiled threats.
Ultimately the question is not whether Cliff Lyon is a bigot; that seems obvious. The question is; do you think he went too far and may have possibly broken the law by issuing what could be seen as a death threat against Glenn Beck? Bloggers often time forget that what they say is very public and not just between friends.
Also, consider that this is someone who many in Utah’s Democratic Party have relied on for political support and advice. I have known many Democrats in my lifetime, heck I even produced a commercial in Nebraska for a friend running for state office as a Democrat, yet I have never met a single one that has expressed the level of hatred coming from OneUtah. So I have to ask myself, is this the direction that the Democratic Party is taking? I mean this is the premier, top ranked political site on the left is it not?
I plan on asking several leaders of the Democratic Party as well as several religious leaders in Utah to read some of the writings at OneUtah to answer that question over the upcoming weeks. I hope everyone will be interested to see what they have to say.

• Nixon D-House
April 15th, 2009 at 10:50 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
/rereads article
oh Gang Rape!
Oh, holy shit, you scared me. At first, I thought that he meant ‘gang rapped”
I kept having 8 Mile Flash backs.
Wow that was a bad movie.

• Rich Okelberry
April 15th, 2009 at 10:56 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Becky,
I do not know anything about your post, A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief. So I hope my silence is understandable. If need be you can always reach me at UtahFreePress.com.
“By the way, did you also tell your wife how you threatened to show up with a film crew to surprise me? Does she approve of your stalking plans?”
I believe you are referring to the fact that I did mention in full disclosure that you might be included in a documentary about this very subject. In fact if you remember right, I first asked you to sit down and share freely your positions. Also if you remember, I have explained to you before that as a regular contributor at OneUtah, you have become a public figure which removes any expectation of privacy from the media. Therefore, if I choose to confront you with my questions in a public area it is not considered by law stalking but mere journalism as protected by the U.S. Constitution. In the future I would hope that you would refrain from your attempt at Libel by referring to me as a stalker.
And yes, my wife is fully aware of this project that I am working on.

• Rich Okelberry
April 15th, 2009 at 11:29 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
TIM CARTER,
I can’t see how the subject can be more general. In fact I asked the question twice:
…when can bloggers go too far and cross the line between free speech and making terroristic threats?
…is such intimidation and threatening language illegal under our laws or is it protected as free speech under the Constitution?
Is it in your opinion OK for a blogger to say someone should be hung by the neck or call for the decapitation of people for refusing to turn off their spiritual beliefs at the voting booth? Tim, seriously, if Rush Limbaugh had called for Obama to be hung by the neck, what would be your instant response be? Be honest Tim…
You seem yourself to be wound up in this personally. Believe me, this is not a personal attack against Cliff Lyon. He is merely an example of where the left is headed if it can’t rid it’s self of such bigots. I notice that while you have many criticisms for me, you could not spare one for the man who is calling for decapitations and using phrases like Church Boy and Jew Boy.
While you are right, I do defend right occasionally at OneUtah I have never been as comfortable there as you seem to be. I doubt I will ever be able to stomach such bold faced bigotry.
Finally as I said, I do not take comparisons to Nazi Germany lightly, but we all need to remember that it wasn’t until later that the Nazis began building ovens to complete the final solution. In the beginning it was just pure bigotry against a race and a religion from a group of National Socialist authoritarians. Where are you going to be willing to draw the line in the sand, Tim? Will you wait until Christians are being loaded into box cars? Or by that time will you be proudly wearing your arm band?
Tim, I would like you to give me a single link to a single post over at One Utah where you have opposed the blatant bigotries there. You say you frequent the site, so you should have had ample opportunity to stand up for what is right.

• Cliff
April 15th, 2009 at 11:45 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
“bigotries” is not a word.

• JeffP
April 16th, 2009 at 12:36 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Rich, I don’t think anyone but you thinks Cliff is the official spokeperson for the Utah Democratic Party, the left-leaning bloggers, or the “direction the left is headed” as you so paranoid-ly (is that a word?) put it. Cliff is just a blogger with something to say, and just like you, I’m glad there is a forum in which he can say it. I haven’t been following your interactions there, but reading this post, your attacks on them seem more personal and petty than intent on creating a discussion.
Want a little advice? If you don’t like what Cliff, Warnick, Becky and others are writing at OneUtah, if it causes incessant hand wringing and keeps you awake at night, STOP GOING THERE!
See, problem solved.

• James Farmer
April 16th, 2009 at 12:58 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
ro:
You have way too much time on your hands, you are hypersensitive, or you are both. Regardless, thanks for pulling together some classic quotes from OneUtah. Reading those quotes again, along with your diatribe, really made my day!

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 7:51 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
JeffP,
While I am glad to hear that you don’t believe Cliff Lyon is a spokesperson for the Utah Democratic Party, like Tim Carter above I noticed that you just couldn’t quite bring yourself to actually speak out against him. Presumably I must also then conclude that you have no problem with his statements about hanging Glenn Beck by the neck and don’t care much to discuss the legality of that issue.
I must say that I am just a little disturbed by the fact that you can so easily read past the intense bigotry and potential death threats at OneUtah. If OneUtah were a neo-Nazi site or one run by the KKK that I was exposing in the same way here at FTP, would you be as willing to simply say, “STOP GOING THERE?” Everyone just needs a little room to express themselves.
Have we now become so morally relativistic as a nation that we should all should just turn a blind eye to such bigotries? You see, the comparison to similar bigotry in Nazi Germany is not the only appropriate comparison here. What is also uncanny is how many people are willing to do exactly what you suggest when presented with such hatred, turn away.
What will solve the problem, as you put it, is if liberal minded people will finally come out of their shells and start speaking out against the bigots in their ranks. Until then, THIS IS THE DIRECTION THE LEFT IS HEADED!
I wonder if your approach to this issue would be the same if someone was posting here at FTP about the wandering comments of Sen. Chris Buttars.

• rmwarnick
April 16th, 2009 at 8:03 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
R.O. is correct, I was able to “quickly produce” a list of high Bush administration officials and prominent neocons who hold dual U.S./Israeli citizenship. Scary, huh? Here’s my secret: I used The Google Machine.
Am I anti-Jewish? No. Do I think the Israeli government is pursuing boneheaded, counterproductive policies toward Palestinians and Iran? Yes. Do I think the IDF committed war crimes in Gaza? Yes.
As for my criticisms of the Bush administration, I stand by every one. Bush was the worst president ever in American history.
In brief: (1) The failure to stop the 9/11 attacks caused more Americans to die from terrorist attack than in all other presidencies combined; (2) As a result of the failed 7-year so-called “Global War on Terror,” al-Qaeda is as big a threat as ever; (3) The pointless illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq was the worst U.S. foreign policy blunder in history, and the most costly overseas military operation ever except for World War II; (4) The Bush torture regime has ruined America’s reputation as a beacon of human rights, and created a legal conundrum because the U.N. Convention Against Torture requires prosecution of those responsible (both Bush and Cheney have openly confessed to ordering torture of detainees)– Spain is moving ahead on this because the Obama administration has hesitated; (5) Former President Bush was the first president to condemn the U.S. Constitution as “a goddamn piece of paper,” and he freely admitted ordering the widespread warrantless surveillance of Americans– in clear violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and the 4th Amendment of the Constitution; (6) The Bush administration was the first to lose a major city, New Orleans, to a natural disaster– the same government department charged with protecting people from a terrorist attack and its aftermath could not competently respond to a hurricane everyone saw coming days in advance; (7) Due to tax cuts for the rich, massive deficits, de-regulation of the financial markets, and the worst record of job creation since Herbert Hoover, the Bush administration crashed the U.S. economy and a good part of the world economy.

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 8:06 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
James Farmer,
Glad to see you willing to come out in support of your leader Cliff Lyon at OneUtah. As you know I am currently working on a short subject documentary about Hate on the Left and am using some of the writings at one Utah as a center point. Do you think you would be willing to sit down on camera and tell us what you think about some select writings at OneUtah?
And yes James, as a retired disabled veteran I do as you put it have too much time on my hands. Maybe if you saw me as a community organizer of information for the masses it might help you understand a little better why I do what I do. Why would you say you contribute so heavily at OneUtah, James?
(Reader Info: James Farmer is a leading contributor at OneUtah.org)

• Becky
April 16th, 2009 at 8:38 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
RO,
Does this ring a bell? http://kvnuforthepeople.com/2009/04/03/will-the-lds-church-address-climate-change/comment-page-1/.
Or, to help a little more, here’s the direct link (although I know damn well you already saw this but couldn’t think of a single insulting thing to say to me). This post was offered in all sincerity on my part and I hope the other readers here at KVNU enjoy it – it’s a tender story indeed. http://oneutah.org/2009/04/03/late-night-club-utah-come-come-ye-saints-david-johansen/
(P.S. Where do you stand, RO, on Ann Coulter’s death threat against Justice Souter – you know, when she suggested someone should put rat poison in his creme brulee?)

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 9:48 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Okelberries,
Hanging is a Cherished American Dream. I guess someone forgot to tell you at Boot Camp, about the freedoms you were fighting for (had you fought).
Meet one of our most cherished American traditions: If you do not see a picture below, go see it here.

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 10:05 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
@Rich Okelberry
Okelberries,
I certainly hope that you will include me in your documentary. I would be honored to defend every word I have ever written…on the record.
I can also help you find a name-brand lawyer who can discuss the nature and history of free speech in this country.
Just tell me what you need. I’m there.
On another subject…please check my next ‘in-line’ comment.

• rmwarnick
April 16th, 2009 at 10:15 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Since R.O. seems to be a fan of Glenn Beck, let’s see, has Beck ever indulged in over-the-top rhetoric celebrating violence? Three examples:
May 17, 2005: “I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out — is this wrong?”
March 30, 2009: Beck portrays Obama, Democrats as vampires “going after the blood of our businesses,” suggests “driv[ing] a stake through the heart of the bloodsuckers.”
April 9, 2009: [While pretending to pour gasoline on a guest] “So what does Obama do, he says, boy, I’m not — I’m just out of stuff to do. What else could I possibly do to the American people? President Obama, why don’t you just set us on fire?”

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 10:26 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Rich Okelberry :
James Farmer,
Glad to see you willing to come out in support of your leader Cliff Lyon at OneUtah. Do you think you would be willing to sit down on camera and tell us what you think about some select writings at OneUtah?
… Why would you say you contribute so heavily at OneUtah, James?
(Reader Info: James Farmer is a leading contributor at OneUtah.org)
RO, You seem stuck on this idea that OneUtah is some sort of exclusive tribe and I control it. The founding principle of OneUtah, of having many uncensored authors anywhere on the political spectrum, was inspired by the over abundance of one-man blogs in Utah.
Back in January of 2006, there were NO open multi-author blogs in Utah. I’d like to think I was a strong influence on Tom Grover in adopting this model. I was relentless in pushing Rob Miller to start Utah Amicus with the same model. Today, KVNU_FTP and Amicus are the top blogs in Utah I believe, for this reason.
That you seem to have missed this simple reality, is apparent from your repeated failure to establish your own blog.
You come off like a control freak. You need to let go.
The Internet way is the American way…free open and transparent.

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 10:51 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Becky,
I am sorry, but I am telling the truth when I said that I failed to see your post over at OneUtah or your announcement of it here. That was the week that my dog of ten years, Nicodemus was diagnosed with kidney disease and eventually had to be put to sleep. Now that I have read it I must say that it is well composed and compassionate. Also, along with love for Mormons around you, you might want to consider a bit of respect too rather than referring to the LDS faithful as following;
“the dogma of a big organization that has much to gain by mind-control over its membership.” – Becky Staufer
Still, you regularly seem to baulk at the idea of ever opposing a single word written by either Shane or Cliff at OneUtah even when asked directly. If you truly loved you Mormon family and friends as you say you do, why would you not come to their defense even once? You seem instead to throw out anecdotal quips about what kind of tea Mormons drink and such. You are hardly a force against the open bigotry of your comrades.
Finally, did you mind nothing wrong with the fact that Cliff felt it necessary to point out that Glenn Beck is Mormon? How on earth would that ever matter except to be bigoted? Also, if instead you came buy here one day and saw that I published a post calling for all abortion clinics to be bombed, would you feel at all compelled to notify the authorities? Of course you would. Put down your liberal defensive barriers for just a moment Becky and see Cliff’s statements for what they are. Not liberal… Not conservative… just bigoted.
Let’s come back to reality Becky! Please tell us as a major contributor at OneUtah are you in any way in disagreement with any of Cliff Lyon’s statements above? Here is your chance Becky.
(BTW: I am not familiar with the Coulter statements but do believe if she made a similar threat the authorities should at the very least look into it as they will in this case.)

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 11:15 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Okelberries,
I felt it was my duty to call Janet to put you on the watch list. She put you on a special hot list because she felt your religious zealotry was cause for even greater concern.
WASHINGTON — Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said Thursday a report warning that military veterans could be prone to joining right wing extremism was a routine assessment giving a “situational awareness” of potential threats. [SNIP]
Asked about the report’s assertion that some U.S. military veterans could be seen as potential converts to right wing extremism during a time of a down economy, Napolitano said the report was a routine form of guidance for state and local police and that it is a set of assertions, “not accusations.”
Okelberries, since you are in fact a US military veteran (thank you again for your service to my country), it might be prudent to associate yourself with my strong conviction that Glenn Beck deserves to ’swing in the breeze’ so as to begin to distance yourself from the militant right-wing. You might also consider converting to a less militant denomination than Lutheran.
It for your own good Richard. I’d hate to see a fellow blogger end up in Bagram.

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 11:23 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
OK People,
Its pretty clear that you all (OneUtah Cult Authors) need to register your disgust with my hate-filled vitriol to vindicate Okelberries.
I can’t be held responsible for the consequences that may befall you should you fail to do so. It is entirely possible that Okelberries has a special dispensation (direct line to God) and Sunday is coming…
Save your souls NOW! Why take the chance? Give it to me hard!

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 11:30 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
@rmwarnick
Richard W,
Are you using Glenn Beck to defend Cliff? If Glenn beck truly has broken the law and threatened individuals then yes he too should be prosecuted. Ultimately that is what this post is about isn’t it? How far is too far?
While Cliff certainly has a right to his anti-religious beliefs, we all also have the same right to oppose them. What is at question is whether what Cliff wrote could be considered a threat of violence under the law. Certainly if such a statement is found to constitute a threat I am merely arguing that under Utah law it might not be too difficult for prosecutors to charge the statement as a hate crime considering Cliff’s statement about Beck’s religion as well as his last bigoted statements.
So, what says you? Should such a statement be seen as illegal? Would for example you call for the prosecution of individuals who places pictures of abortionists on a web site then X out the ones that have been murdered? Certainly that would appear to be far less threatening than coming straight out for someone to be hanged by the neck, right?

• Jason Williams
April 16th, 2009 at 11:32 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Rich, you write:
What will solve the problem, as you put it, is if liberal minded people will finally come out of their shells and start speaking out against the bigots in their ranks. Until then, THIS IS THE DIRECTION THE LEFT IS HEADED!
To which I ad: oversimplifications and sweeping generalizations to condemn a large group of people, and pass your own personal prejudices off as conventional wisdom that must be binding in all endeavors is, are the tools of a bigot.
There is always something to be offended about, and Hitler references and cries of “bigot” are the new Briteny Spears of politics.
It doesn’t make any of this a reasonable argument, nor does any of what you’ve written here show an understanding of either “the left” or the history of “One Utah” in Utah’s blogging community at large for the past few years.
I will not condemn Cliff, or Becky, or R.Warnick, or Shane, or any of the writers at One Utah (ok, I’ll condemn Becky a little for not posting as much at RedStateBlues as well as One Utah… I miss her musings there), any more than I will condemn you for writing this post, and the subsequent comments pretending to know the hearts and minds of those writers, “the left,” or even those who have responded to you here. I do not agree with your conclusions. I find them horribly informed (Warnick an anti-semite? Really? Becky a secret terrorist? C’mon man!), a gross oversimplification that millions of liberals would find obtuse and inaccurate, and a thinly veiled attempt to ad substance to a personal beef. No more. But you had every right to write it, and I’m glad for that overall. It’s what makes this blogging thing so important.
The internet is a “Big Boy” world. We should be able to discern between passion on a subject, or the occasional poorly thought out comment or post, and calling the PO-lice each time we are offended by something we read on the Tubes or the TeeVee (see Warnick’s previous comment for examples you’ve ignored). I would expect you, of all people, to understand that.

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 12:21 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Jason,
I agree that on the surface the statement you quoted may appear to be an oversimplification. Unfortunately, seeds of hate and bigotry must like all things start somewhere. I am merely arguing that if mainstream Democrats are not able to recognize the threat that even small groups of bigots can pose then eventually such bigotry will spread like a cancer through the party and begin controlling its direction. You see that is how such bigotry spreads. First we begin accepting a small bigoted quip here and there maybe in the form of a joke and before long we are defending hate speech and blaming Jews or Christians for the problems of the world.
Certainly the Right has had to deal with this very thing for years. Look how Chris Buttars here in Utah has single handedly divided Republicans. There are still those who refuse to admit that Buttars has made bigoted remarks. I would hope that you would agree with me that unfortunately it is up to conservatives to recognize the threat that Buttar’s way of thinking represents to the value of their party and marginalize him themselves. Just as the Democratic Party had to throw off the grip or racism in the south during efforts to integrate schools they should now be guarding themselves against the rise of hate groups in their ranks.
In the case of Cliff Lyon, I have very little use for understanding how OneUtah began because regardless of it’s beginnings it has now arguably become the den where the liberal versions of Chris Buttars have chosen to hang their hat and the proprietor seems to be the worst of the lot.
Would you argue Jason, that I should not oppose publically such bigotry? I as many see you as an up and coming star in the Utah Democratic Party. Anyone who knows you also knows that you are a sensible and reasonable person on most issues. Unfortunately, there is no point where a person can be sensible or reasonable in the face of out right bigotry whether it is against sex, race or religion, etc… Maybe you are missing the bigotry and the threat in Cliff Lyon’s statement. Allow me to reword it just a bit…
“One of the Greatest American Traitors is a BLACK. This pitiful scum sucking pig needs to be hung by the neck.”
Does that help anyone here understand what Cliff Lyon is saying and how he is saying it?
Be clear, I am not condemning all liberals for the actions of these few. But to turn a blind eye and excuse every ugly thing said is wrong Jason and you really should reconsider your condemnation of it. After all that is what community leaders must do when confronted with such hate and bigotry. So I ask you where do I find the chorus of liberal leaders in opposition to such bigotry. Certainly you do not have to go far to find conservatives in opposition of Chris Buttars. I am merely asking of liberals what they would ask of conservatives in a similar case.
If you like, I have pages of such rants from various authors at OneUtah and am currently contacting public leaders for statements about them. If you like we can put them on the air and allow these individuals to defend themselves if they like. You are right, the internet is for Big Boys and I would hope that each of these authors would have no problem standing behind their statements before the people of Utah.
If a conservative author here made a similar bigoted statement; you should rightfully expect me to step up and condemn it, Jason?

• rmwarnick
April 16th, 2009 at 12:46 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
@Rich Okelberry
R.O., I don’t make a practice of threatening anyone, however I think a lawyer could tell you that defamation of public figures like Glenn Beck and President Obama falls under a different standard than defamation of ordinary non-famous individuals such as you and Cliff Lyon.
Clever, the way you refuse to say whether Glenn Beck’s comments were appropriate, hiding behind your favorite word “if.”

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 12:59 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Okelberries,
This is sooooo fun. Can we go on the air tonight! Please? I can probably convince Becky to participate too.
You must know RO, that very qualities you ascribe to me and then erroneously extend to the entire party are in sum an accurate portrayal of the Republican Party today.
“Instead, they have retreated further inside an ideological shell that began to show cracks” Link
You Okelberries are an example of the ‘cracks’. I’m guessing that right about now, KVNU as a commercial enterprise has to seriously reconsider your status as an author here.
No worries. You are always welcome to become an Author on OneUtah…as you know. I can’t imagine why you won’t take me up on that.
Just give me a 1U user name and I will give it Author rights. OK?
Please, please, PLEASE? Pretty please? With sugar on top? Cherry? HOT FUDGE????
Btw: In order to insure this remains harmless banter, I want to be sure everybody knows, I am not a physical threat to anyone. I do not now, never have, and never will own, carry, or use a gun. I am a pacifist. I have never harmed anyone and I have never threatened to harm anyone.
I am violently opposed to violence. Even in the case of Glenn Beck, I prefer to visualize his body swinging in a gentle Spring breeze surrounding by the songs of returning birds and cheering children.

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 1:12 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Richard Warnick,
First, we are not talking about defamation of a public figure. We are talking about the issuing of terroristic threats to a public figured coupled with bigoted remarks as defined by Utah Hate Crimes legislation.
Second, I have simply afforded Glenn Beck in your examples the same courtesy that I gave Cliff Lyon by not declaring them guilty under the law of anything. It is up to the authorities not me to levy formal charges against either. As far as my personal belief about how the law should be interpreted, I believe that we must err on the side of caution when protecting the lives of our citizens. Imagine for a moment if no one said anything to the authorities about Cliff’s remarks and he did end up killing Glenn Beck. I imagine we would all be standing around point fingers and arguing about how the death was preventable.
Finally, I have not had time to track down each of your statements to view them in context because I have been busy responding to posts. You have purposely taken out of context and misquoted in the past to prove your point. As such you have no credibility in my eyes. Therefore I will not make a kneejerk response without first checking your sources.

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 1:27 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Hey Okelberries,
Does this statement constitute a death threat?
“I think the people of Illinois are ready to shoot anyone who is going to raise taxes by that degree.” – Republican Congressman Mark Kirk
A commentator quoted in the same article said:
“Perhaps someone who hasn’t yet lost his or her mind in the Illinois GOP could advise this distinguished gentleman to turn it down a notch or two? “
Now, lets look at the word metaphor.
Is is entirely possible that are not aware of this convention? That might explain your inability to understand the Bible.
The Bible is FULL of metaphors and lots of other literary devices. They are the substance of its appeal.
Maybe we should look at professional wrestling as an example of literary devices. When The Hulk says “I’m going to splatter your brains all over the ring,” he is not saying like in real life that he is going to kill his opponent, like in real life.
Trust me on this and just remember this example next time I suggest decapitating religious extremist who can’t leave politics alone…and leave the shotgun locked up in a safe place and way from your children. Seriously. You DO NOT want your kids knowing that you actually believe your family is at risk from a blogger. That could bite you in the ass someday.
Besides, decapitation these days is almost the exclusive purview of Religious Extremist…a preferred remedy reserved for Atheist like me.

• rmwarnick
April 16th, 2009 at 1:35 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
@Rich Okelberry
OK, so you’re not willing to say whether you’ll criticize Glenn Beck’s allusions to violence until you examine the context. Fair enough. Take your time.

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 1:51 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Berries For Brains. You need to retract you statement about Warnick.
You have purposely taken out of context and misquoted in the past to prove your point. As such you have no credibility in my eyes. Therefore I will not make a kneejerk response without first checking your sources.
IF YOU DO NOT RETRACT THAT LIE, I WILL PIN YOUR ARMS UNDER MY KNEES AND PAINT YOUR FACE WITH RED LIPSTICK! And it won’t be pretty.
Seriously though, I’m calling you out on this accusation. While I cannot make the claim for myself, Richard Warnick consistently reflects the very highest standard of journalistic integrity, fairness and accuracy.
Should we be surprised that you cannot support your malicious libelous accusations? LETS RUMBLE Okelfairy! Put your money where you pious mouth is.
No one has ever successfully demonstrated

• Jason Williams
April 16th, 2009 at 1:58 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
@Rich Okelberry
Chris Buttars = Elected Official, Cliff Lyon = Blogger.
It’s not an apt comparison, Rich, and again, you make far too many assumptions in propping this argument up.

• Tyler Riggs
April 16th, 2009 at 2:01 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Cliff, might you stop referring to Rich as “Okelberries?”
I don’t see him calling you some cute derivative of your last name, such as “Lyins” for example.

• Nixon
April 16th, 2009 at 3:17 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
I’m just curious which of you blokes can pee farthest?

• Becky
April 16th, 2009 at 3:23 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Yokelberries,
(I can’t believe it, did that cute Tyler Riggs just ask someone not to call you names? You know how that gets the rebellious spirit in me stirred up!)
Way upthread, RO, you said a few things with which I shall take issue.
While I’m sorry to hear about poor Nicodemus, RO, you did manage to post a comment two clicks above mine – which was actually the impetus of my comment, so it sort of deflates your excuse. Whenever you have to admit you’re wrong, you have a tendency to blame your wife, your sick kids, or having to babysit, or now you blame your poor dog. That’s just bad form, RO. Excuse not accepted. Go sit in the Vice Principal’s office!
you might want to consider a bit of respect too rather than referring to the LDS faithful as following; “the dogma of a big organization that has much to gain by mind-control over its membership.” – Becky Staufer
If you truly loved you Mormon family and friends as you say you do, why would you not come to their defense even once? You seem instead to throw out anecdotal quips about what kind of tea Mormons drink and such.
Well, RO. Two things here. There is a difference between loving individuals and disagreeing with a big corporation. But of course, you knew that. You sometimes need take things out of context to make your point (wasn’t someone talking about that here?). For example:
One of OneUtah’s regulars, Ken, commented that “I think this Mormon boy might just go to the store and buy some tea.” And my response was “Mormons drink herbal tea. Go for the Lemon Zinger.” Yeah, I was pretty hard on Ken there, Yokelberry. I ought to back off a bit, huh?
Finally, did you mind [sic] nothing wrong with the fact that Cliff felt it necessary to point out that Glenn Beck is Mormon?
Nope, nothing. If you knew Mormons as I do RO, you’d know they prefer to point out ALL celebrities who are Mormon. Sports figures, entertainers, politicians, pundits, you name it. Why shouldn’t Cliff, in a state where being Mormon is, after all, pretty relevant, point that out?
As to any other agreements or disagreements I may have with authors at OneUtah, or for that matter with you and any of the authors here at FTP, I don’t claim to know everything they each believe and I wouldn’t begin to characterize what that might be, let alone explain where I stand on it. If you want to bring up specific issues, we can talk.
Finally, RO, I’ve reported you to my local law enforcement to be sure I’m doing all I can to protect myself and my grandchildren from intrusions by you and your camera crew, and they inform me they already have a file on you, filed under “L” for lunatic fringe.
P.S. To Jason, thanks for the kind words about RedStateBlues. I resolve to do better.

• Becky
April 16th, 2009 at 3:41 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Nixon,
Not me.

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 3:42 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Hi Tyler,
Its very kind of you to notice. The reason I sometimes call your best friend Okelberries is because in his last major screed about me, he called me “Lyons” which is an Irish name. Thank GOD I am not Irish (nor a member of PETA)
I don’t remember seeing you admonish him for that. I think you need to do some serious soul searching before you take task with me.
The harsh truth is that Riggs used to be Rigg and of course McRiggin before that.
When your great, great grandfather McRiggin was released from an English prison and shipped over, he changed the his family name to Rigg avoid the rabid anti-Irish sentiment.
But he was still a scrapper and he would beat the crap out of anyone who called him Riggs. Later on after his drinking had caught up with him, he was unable to take on anyone who called him Riggs so he would just scream at the top of his lungs, “Its RIGG, my name is RIGG!”
But by then it was too late. But it was your great grandfather Dylan Rigg who finally learned to read and write during his last few years in prison.
As the story goes, he so hated his father and so loved writing the letter ‘S’, he added the ‘S’ and it stuck.
So the moral of the story is; take chill pill.

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 4:10 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Hey Tyler,
I see someone took down your PETA post. Are you guys censoring your authors?
As I recall, it began, “I hate PETA.” Now, its not really my style to accuse people of being ‘hateful’ for simply criticizing right-wing extremist and religious zealots in well supported posts.
No sir. In my book, one must EARN the label ‘hateful’ unless of course they come right out and say it as you did.
But ten you went on and on about how MUCH you hate PETA.
As you know, PETA’s mission is the prevention of cruelty to animals based upon the premise that they have the same rights as people, or at the very least, the same rights by Oklefairy’s definition of a 4-celled zygote.
That’s animal worship in anyone’s book which of course constitutes religious doctrine.
Therefore, under Yokelschlockberries logic, you must be a bigot.
Right?

• Nixon
April 16th, 2009 at 5:17 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Yokeschlockberries! I see what you did there.
Don’t you people have jobs?

• Tyler Riggs
April 16th, 2009 at 5:22 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Cliff, my PETA post wasn’t taken down.
http://kvnuforthepeople.com/2009/04/13/why-i-hate-peta-and-why-they-suck-as-an-organization/
Allow me to introduce you to the “Older posts” link for when “older posts” get bumped off the first page.

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 5:30 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Cliff,
I would suggest you ask Richard Warnick about purposely misquoting U.S. laws to prove a point. How about it Richard, should I tell him or should you?

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 5:33 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Jason,
As I said in my essay Cliff Lyon does not just represent a simple blogger but holds himself up as once Rocky Andersons Communication Director and a campaign advisor / director who has apparently been used regularly by candidates in the Democratic Party. He is hardly just a blogger.
Also is it only an assumption that words like Church Boy and Jew Boy are bigoted terms. Maybe you can explain why Cliff was sure to address the fact that Glenn Beck is a Mormon before wishing for his death. Is it merely a wrong assumption when I say a statement like, “when I say ‘SHUT UP’, I am speaking to each and every asshole who drags his or her religious beliefs out into the public like dirty underwear,” is bigoted at best?
Maybe we should start with what we can agree on. Apples and Oranges argument aside, do you consider these statements bigoted?

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 5:46 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Okelnuts,
Nobody is just a blogger obviously. Whats your point?
BTW: Why are comparing Church boy and Jew boy? Who said Jew boy anyway?

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 5:49 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
You are nuts Richard. You’ve unilaterally broadened the definition of Bigot so wide, any criticism or pet name qualifies under your definition.
So Tyler Hates PETA. Is that bigotry? By your definition it is.
What is NOT bigotry is Church Boy. Get a life Church boy!

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 7:08 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Becky,
Certainly bigotry can be subjective. You obviously find no bigotry at all in anything Cliff has written or you simply don’t care enough to oppose it. Unfortunately for both of us, neither you nor I can be the true judge of whether your statements about a mind-controlling LDS Church are bigoted. Only someone who practices that faith can say that with any certainty. Just as I can never understand the FULL impact of someone calling a black man a Nigger because I myself am not black, though I certainly can empathize and try to discourage and stand up against what seems to me and many others to be an obvious form of bigotry. Therefore, I will present the following statement of yours to several members of the LDS faith and ask them if they find it bigoted.
bekkieann :”You are wrong, Rich. I was once exactly where you are. I spent the first 30 years of my life as a devoted, faithful Mormon, and thus had all my opinions, right down to the exact talking points, handed to me on a silver platter. I needed only to parrot them back. Then something happened. I got a mind of my own. And in that enlightenment, I suddenly found it necessary to evaluate each and every belief and decide for myself where I stood. I have the beliefs I have today because of 30 additional years of personal study and growth. My beliefs are my own, not the dogma of a big organization that has much to gain by mind-control over its membership.” – Becky Staufer
Is that in context enough for you Becky? Or is there some meaning in this quote that you would like to make us aware of that we might not gleam without reading the entire thread or maybe your mind for that matter.
I know that if this were my church you were talking about, I wouldn’t see such a statement as a mere disagreement with theology or principal but a rather unjustified bigoted remark. Is it truly your belief that the LDS Church tries to use mind-control or brain washing techniques? Do you also believe as you suggest that all members thought and opinion and merely parrot responses on various issues? Is that what you believe Tom Grover and Marc Neilson do when they contribute to this blog?
I would also invite any LDS members here to independently express their view of Becky’s remarks.

• Cliff
April 16th, 2009 at 7:37 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Seriously Richard,
For the sake of intelligent and interesting debate and out of respect for yourself, would you PLEASE stop calling everybody a bigot?
Its really a conversation killer and its dull and tired.
Surely, you are smart enough to debate the substance of a statement with which you disagree on its merits.
When you use the word bigot or any of its derivations (including new ones) you shift the conversation from the argument to the character of the person making it.
EVEN if the speaker is a bigot, it kills the more interesting part of the exchange. You don’t always need to be the enforcer.
Sometimes we feel like you might have an inferiority complex and maybe some victim stuff going on and that you are taking it out on us.
Becky is certainly not a bigot. I know you will agree it must be POSSIBLE to criticize someone or group without it necessarily being bigotry.
And if you do agree with that possibility, then wouldn’t the discussion be better served by starting out under that premise before just claiming bigotry by fiat?
You are so close to being tolerable.
Example: Why can’t you ask questions like this BEFORE calling someone a bigot.
Is it truly your belief that the LDS Church tries to use mind-control or brain washing techniques?
Lets just call it a sequencing thing. Try asking your questions and make your arguments first. If your adversary is a bigot, he or she will expose themselves soon enough.
I know bigotry and Becky is not one and neither are you.

• Rich Okelberry
April 16th, 2009 at 7:58 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
I would like everyone to notice the relativistic defense tactic that Cliff Lyon has taken on this issue. He appears to be arguing that bigotry against religion is no different than Tyler’s dislike for PETA. Is Cliff really expecting us to put religious bigotry on the same level as dislike for the beliefs and tactics of a political group?
There is a reason why the far majority of states in our country include bigoted hate speech toward religion in its Hate Crimes legislations. This because unlike Cliff Lyon, most people in an enlightened society are able to recognize the terrible price that societies who have fostered such hate throughout history have paid. The Nazis are only one example of authoritarians who sought to destroy religion.
Though I must admit I would love to hear from others like Cliff who seem to believe that hate and bigotry towards religion is justified and truly no different than any other type of disagreement be it political or cultural.
For those of you who would like to view which states have Hate Crimes provisions against religious intolerance, the Anti-Defamation League web site has a great chart.
ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE STATE HATE CRIME STATUTORY PROVISIONS
Also for those of you who might be confused in general about what constitutes bigotry towards religion, you may want to visit the Anti-Defamation League web site http://www.adl.org in general.

• Becky
April 16th, 2009 at 8:09 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
RO,
There are two ‘f’s in Stauffer.

• Tyler Riggs
April 16th, 2009 at 11:57 pm • Edit | Delete | Spam
Gentlemen! (and lady Becky),
At this point I think it’d be best to carry our your conversation in private, through e-mail, IM, or better yet, a phone call (perhaps a conference call so Becky and RM Warnick can join in too?)
Ask yourselves whether this debate is best served carried out for all the FTP readership to view. If you can honestly answer yes, then far be it from me to stop you. But if the answer is no, then let’s find another way to discuss this for now.

• Rich Okelberry
April 17th, 2009 at 8:25 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Let’s see, I publish a post exposing hate speech and the potential of terroristic threats being produced by a self professed member of the inner circle of the Democratic Party here in Utah. The purveyors of such speech respond by using sophomoric name calling by referring to me as Okelberries, Berries For Brains, Yokelberries, Yokeschlockberries, Okelnuts and let’s not forget Cliff Lyon’s new personal favorite Okelfairy where Cliff attempts to insult me by basically calling me a homosexual. Why a progressive liberal would think to use homosexuality as an insult is truly beyond me.
Even so, one of the individuals who took part in this playground name calling bully session, Beck Stauffer (she’s the one that called meYokelberries) now appears miffed that I have made the honest mistake of leaving one ‘f’ out of her name. For this I apologize.
This brings me to conclude that perhaps Tyler is right and this thread has run its course. Unfortunately, I can’t imagine a conference call will suddenly put away the years of built up religious bigotry at OneUtah. What is certain is this is not the end of the story for the crew of OneUtah.
As I’ve alluded to before, I am in the process of contacting both law enforcement and various religious and political leaders in our communities to get their response to some of the materials collected from the primary authors at OneUtah. I am doing this to place their opinions of such speech along side the individuals who would seek to divide our communities in hate.
One thing is certain; it truly will be interesting to see which political leaders are willing to take a stand against such verbal tyranny. I am expecting that there will be those who simply won’t want to get involved and there may even be others who will be apologetic for such speech calling it their right, privilege and freedom. One thing will be certain, we will see which of our political leaders take such hate speech seriously.
So until later, I will close with this…
“If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!” – Adolf Hitler, London: Book Club Associates, 1977, p.116
This quote was considered by many at the time to be a mere Metaphor…
“…I’m interested in decapitating people who think their religious opinions belong in government… …One of the Greatest American Traitors is a Mormon. This pitiful scum sucking pig needs to be hung by the neck.” – Cliff Lyon
It’s almost as if you didn’t need a break between these quotes isn’t it?
If you discover hate online the Anti-defamation League has these strategies to fight back… Please notice that turning a blind eye is not one of the strategies. While people may have the right to preach such hate, we all also have the right and I would say the duty to strongly oppose it.
Flag. Many sites, such as YouTube, allow users to flag offensive content for review. Many also allow you to say why you thought something was offensive. If so, make sure to include detailed comments as to why you thought the item was hateful.
Speak. Post videos, counter-points of view, or comments that oppose the offensive point of view. Let the social networking community see a competing perspective.
Think. Perspective is crucial. Think before you respond, and try to respond in a thoughtful, careful manner.
Applaud. Don’t forget to post positive comments on content that shares positive messages.
Talk. Talk to your friends, teachers, or family about what you’ve seen.
Learn. Many groups publish information about combating particular kinds of prejudice, such as the Anti-Defamation League’s resources on anti-Semitism.
E-mail. Notify groups like the Anti-Defamation League, which keep track of trends in hate speech.
Act. Take active steps to combat prejudice online and offline.
Know. Know the community with which you are dealing. Look for a site’s Terms of Service or Community Guidelines and find out about the kind of site the company wants to run – many say that they do not wish to host hateful content – and hold the site accountable to it.
A word about free speech and censorship. ADL is a leading advocate for free speech and does not believe in government suppression of hateful speech merely because it is hateful. However, many websites and social networking sites voluntarily agree to exercise good corporate responsibility and limit the hateful content they purvey. In such cases, we believe that users should speak out firmly against the hate they encounter on those sites, and in turn the sites should live up to their stated Terms of Service or Community Guidelines.

• Cliff
April 17th, 2009 at 9:29 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
Tyler,
Agreed. We should probably close this thread…after I get a last word.
Okelberries quoted me accurately.
I’m interested in decapitating people who think their religious opinions belong in government
The operative (dependent) clause here is “people who think their religious opinions belong in government.”
I do not speak of religious people, but rather ‘people who…’ I am of course referring to the once powerful moral majority who swept Bush into office and proceeded to invent a new interpretation of the 1st Amendment.
I refer to Republican politicians most of whom were not religious at all but who began associating themselves with God and the religious right when it became expedient.
I refer to people who hold up signs like “God Hates Fags” at political rallies, and of course I refer to the gentle Christian and Mormon flocks across America who only came to hear of the Separation Clause a few long years ago when Freedom of became followed by “…but not freedom from”
I refer to the people who ignoring 300 years of American History, suddenly began chanting ‘Christian Nation.’
I refer to the uninformed and well-informed who out of personal insecurity, religious confusion and political expedience, blurred the lines in this great democracy between religion and government.
I refer to those shrill and hysterical voices who would when asked to SHUT UP, thrust their morality-powered, religion shields before all the world and cry victim, quote Hitler and claim discrimination and bigotry until they turn purple.
This is not about religion at all. This is about posers and monsters who have sacrificed whatever grace religion had in this country and pimped it for political power.
Of With Their Heads!
Peace, Cliff

• rmwarnick
April 17th, 2009 at 9:44 am • Edit | Delete | Spam
R.O.–
I still want to know if you regard Glenn Beck’s violent hate speech the same way you judge Cliff Lyon. You don’t have to answer me here on this thread, but I’m interested in your answer when you are ready to provide it.