Mass Murderer Dies at the Hands of Radical
By Richard Okelberry (Note: This Essay was originally published at KVNU’s, For the People Blog.)
I originally wrote this as a response to Jason Williams post, Right Wing Extremism here at KVNU. I am Top-Posting it here because of size, because I wanted to be able to embed the videos and because this is important enough of a subject that I felt the discussion should be continued. (Note: Some of you may have noticed that I have not been authoring or commenting as often here at KVNU FTP. Since being elected vice-president at Holy Trinity Lutheran Church I began to fear with good reason that some of my comments might be used out of context to defame not just me but my Church. Therefore, I want to state that these comments are entirely my own and do not reflect any official position of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church.) Jason,
My first instinct after hearing of the shooting Sunday was to write an essay on the topic. Instead I decided to take a moment to allow those on both sides of this issue make their case. I was not surprised to find some on the right rejoicing over the death of Tiller and almost unanimous condemnation from the left. Unfortunately, I also was not surprised to be unable to find a single liberal author or respondent on various sites willing to also admit that the types of abortions being performed by Tiller where heinous if not illegal. Is this just liberals being unwilling to call anything someone on the left does evil? Maybe instead, it has become simply too taboo for anyone on the left to say anything against abortion beyond the current motto, “nobody likes abortion.”
Unlike the far majority on the right who at the very least regularly concede that Tiller’s assassin was wrong and misguided, the left seem to be rallying around a man who can only be described as murderous. While I expect this from hard line leftists who seem all too willing to put their political affiliation ahead of all realities about what we as humans should find to be fair and just, I am truly disappointed that you would fall into that same dogmatic trap, Jason.
I can only hope that your support for Tiller by the reference to the conjoined twin abortion followed by your sarcastic statement, “By all means, Chilli, someone should’ve taken this evil man out ages ago, right?” are simply derived from ignorance about the greater atrocities perpetrated by this man. I would invite you to take a look at an interview that Bill O’Reilly did with a young girl who at the age of 14 became one of Tiller’s patients at the encouragement of her parents. Consider that she had NO underlying medical problems which necessitated the abortion. When Obama said “”Now, I don’t think that ‘mental distress’ qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term” he was talking directly about the types of abortions performed by Tiller and cases like this one.
While I am certain that doctor Tiller likely did perform many legal abortions where a woman’s life was at risk, any number of rights do not justify even a single wrongful death of a viable child. Should we also look at the charitable record of his murderer to justify his actions? Both of these men were evil and murderous. They are both GUILTY! So I want to ask you two questions clear as day on this issue, Jason:
Do you disagree with Obama’s statement, “Now, I don’t think that ‘mental distress’ qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term” or do you personally believe that women should justly have the right to abort a baby at any time and for any reason? What specifically is your stance on late term abortions? When should they be allowed or disallowed?
Do you believe that Tiller was performing the very types of abortions that Obama spoke against? If so was he committing murder?
Here’s an interview with the only psychiatrist, Dr, Paul McHugh to have actually reviewed the records of Tiller’s patients. Maybe this will help put things into perspective.
Finally, I don’t want to close without making a few comments and asking a few questions closer to the core of your post. Am I also an example of the Department of Homeland Security report’s definition of a “Right-Wing Extremist,” as some of your allies over at OneUtah have outright stated? You know me personally Jason, so I think your opinion counts here. Should my opposition to abortion my personal faith and the fact that I am a veteran require that I be placed on some DHS watch list? Perhaps I should point out that Dr. Tiller was also a Lutheran all be it of a slightly different association. Should he likewise been considered a right wing extremist too? Or does his position on abortion automatically exclude him?
This is the first death of an abortionist at the hands of a pro-lifer in over 20 YEARS! [NOTE: A commentor on another blog has indicated that the previous statement may not be accurate. I will research this and make any corrections in an Addendum below.] This is not a pattern, but merely an incident. Young men living on the South Side of Chicago are far more likely to meet a violent end, even after the miracles performed by Obama in that community, than any abortionist is.
While it is unlikely that you will find many pro-choicers gunning for pro-lifers, this is only because pro-choicers don’t see babies in the womb as human and therefore would not be compelled to protect them. Change the political subject however and there has been plenty of violence coming from the left. Two recruits were just shot with one fatality in Arkansas in front of a recruiting station by an anti-war “advocate,” ALF has long resorted to bombings to get its point across and let’s not forget the Weather Underground. Seems to me we have a sitting president that has had personal relations with the unrepentant leader of that last group. Do we really want to play the guilty by association game? Can we all now say that there is something inherent in the liberal mind and philosophy that leads to such violence?
Violent aberrations in society are simply part of human nature. If anything our major religions as well as intellectual discourse and discovery have greatly discouraged rather than promoted such violence. As such we are blessed to live in a society and an age where the far majority of our problems, even abortion which many in our nation see as nothing short of genocide can be dealt with in a civil fashion.
Still, I wonder what, if not religion would restrain many on the left if they were confronted with something they saw as the wholesale murder of their fellow human beings. Maybe it’s Party Brand Loyalty since I have still seen few on the left willing to stand up and speak out against the well documented atrocities committed by Saddam.
For a nation that will likely be looking for answers following this tragedy, I want everyone to consider that if the laws against late-term abortions had not for so long been stonewalled or barely enforced and if Obama would have made good on his pledge to restrict such monstrous procedures, Dr. Tiller would have likely been sitting safely behind bars and this tragedy would have certainly been avoided. While I will never condone the actions of Dr. Tiller’s assassin whose name I have refused to record for history even once in this essay, I will accept my portion of responsibility as all citizens should for the failures of our society to stem the tide of death that ultimately led to this tragedy.
25 comments to Mass Murderer Dies at the Hands of Radical
- Nixon
He makes some very valid points.
I just wanted to add that the last time a right wing extremist killed Police Officers was way back on April 3rd of this year.
&
And that the last time a right wing extremist blew up a federal building was way back on April 19th of 1995.You know, come to think of it, If Bush had totally changed our foreign policy to reflect the way Radical Islam wanted it, September 11th would have never happened.
- Nixon
I’ll find a way to blame Clinton for this…I just need time.
As usual Okelferry, you assume we progressives like abortion. The hubris alone should give your Church pause when considering your role VP.
We all hate abortions. We really do.
What says the Lutheran Church about falsehoods and outright lies.
How can you claim Tiller performed illegal abortions? Since he hasn’t been convicted, one must conclude that you lied to make your case.
Okelfunny, you are a religious zealot JUST LIKE Tiller’s killer. I suggest you back off the political commentary less you be labeled a theocratic.
The Lutheran Church has enough problems without your inflaming the situation and more killing in the name of God.
Tiller was a generous soul who dedicated his life to helping women who were victimized by the worst people in our society. He acted LEGALLY.
To try to justify these acts of domestic terrorism is the true evil in our society.
Lenti,
It seems that maybe you failed to watch the entire interview with Dr. Paul McHugh where when asked, “did you see any one file that justified a late term abortion by demonstrating that she would substantial and irreversible harm?” he stated, “I saw no file that justified abortion on that basis.”
The laws regulating late term abortions require that first the woman must have a severe medical necessity for the procedure and second that an independent medical opinion must be obtained separate from that of the attending physician. In the case of Tiller he relied entirely on the opinion of one of his own employees to back up his own diagnosis. He also regularly made psychiatric evaluations while he himself did not hold a license to practice psychiatry.
Finally, during the middle of the investigation for his crimes he donated large sums of money to Democratic candidates, including Paul Morrison helping him to defeate the incumbent Attorney General in Kansas who was leading the investigation/prosecution. The investigation was immediately sidelined acter the election in 2006 following promises by the new Democratic Attorney General that the Tiller case would be reviewed, “inside out, backwards and forwards, and under a neutron microscope.” It appears that Democrats in Kansas have no more interest in enforcing laws regulating late term abortions than does President Obama.
So Lenti, lets put aside for just a moment that I gave two interviews with credible witnesses that claim Tiller was murdering babies. Where do you stand on the issue of late term abortions? Should a woman be able to abort her child at ANY point during the pregnancy and for ANY reason? Do you at least agree that these laws regulating the procedure which have been ruled by the Supreme Court of the United States of America to fall within the parameters of the Roe vs. Wade decision are proper laws that should be properly enforced?
No where in my essay did I justify any acts of domestic terrorism. People who commit such acts should be condemned by all including myself, convicted and sentenced for their crimes. My point is that acts of murder against viable human beings should be equally admonished, not just by conservatives but liberals alike. To this point I have seen plenty of conservative willing to condemn Tiller’s assassin, but not one liberal willing to publically recognize the actions of Tiller himself. This speaks volumes about the true agenda of liberals who talk publically about reaching middle ground with conservatives on this issue but fail to recognize that a baby in the womb just minutes from birth is deserving of even the most basic of human rights.
I wonder how pro-choicers would feel if Tiller’s assassin kicked out a large political donation to the prosecutors political opposition, won an election mid-trial and subsequently had all the charges against him thrown out. How would you feel if that happened, Lenti?
- Will
This is the argument you should have made Okelberry, before you revealed you are nothing but a zealot.
“If Obama would have made good on his pledge to restrict such monstrous procedures, Dr. Tiller would have likely been sitting safely behind bars and this tragedy would have certainly been avoided.” -Richard Okelberry
If only The United States had not corrupted mideastern governments then we could have avoided that World Trade Center business.” OBL
LOL @ Cliff. Right on. And I was unaware — until Rich made it apparent — that you and I are compatriots of this evil agenda to defend civil liberties. We should meet sometime (Sorry to undermine your conspiracy theories, Rich. Not all of us on the left attend the same “socialist/marxist/whatever-the-GOP-screed-is-at-the-time” meetings. We leave the “tea-baggin” up to you and the far-right).
Rich, I appreciate the argument that you are trying to make, but here is where you fail.
1) Your idea of “the middle” is that everyone, like you, think of legalized abortion as “baby killing.” That is actually the extreme. As Cliff stated, no one likes abortion.
2) You are still, like Chilli, saying in a very subtle but equally as frightening manor that this man’s murder was at least somewhat justified, considering what he did for a living (go ahead and argue against that, but if it’s not what you are saying, why so much detail describing what he did? It must be relevant to you. Why? Because it was abortion doctor some religious zealot nut job whacked, right? And that makes it different. That is insane, my man).
3. Your argument relies entirely on the dogma you accuse me of falling victim to.
For your consideration, some simple statistics on violence committed against abortion doctors and women’s health clinics that I believe constitute extremism:
1993-1998: 7 incidents under Pres. Clinton
1999-2008: 0 incidents under George Bush
2009- : 1 incident under President Obama
Those numbers are my only reason for writing the post you are responding to. While it might be much fun to argue (incessantly) how we all personally define what is right and wrong, and when and where the government should step into our personal lives, or even what types of cold blooded murders are acceptable to you, the only point I was trying to make is that the DHS report on right-wing extremism and violence has gained a bit of credibility in my book. Your comments here, and Chilli’s comments in the previous post are the rhetoric that has only reinforced my conclusion.
Jason,
I apologize if I ruffled some feathers. Nice shout out to Cliff BTW with your little “right on” comment. So was the “LOL” meant to be a Laugh Out Loud or were you giving him smack on the cheek with Lots Of Love. Also, which of his statements did you most find “right on?” Was it his statement, “Okelfunny, you are a religious zealot JUST LIKE Tiller’s killer. I suggest you back off the political commentary less you be labeled a theocratic.” Or maybe it was “The Lutheran Church has enough problems without your inflaming the situation and more killing in the name of God.” You know he has also labeled me a Zionist Apocalyptic. Maybe the two of you can get together and figure out a way to squeeze your right-wing extremist tea-bagger label on to the end of it.
Now that we have the personal stuff out of the way, I want you to consider that there is nothing “subtle” as you say about referring to Tiller’s assassin as “evil” a “murderous” and refusing to give him the recognition he likely desires but publishing his name and holding him up as some sort of hero. If that was not clear enough I will say clear as day that Tiller did not deserve to die at either the hands of this man or even the hands of the state for his crimes. I would hope you would remember from our many conversations that I don’t even support capitol punishment, a position switch that eventually led to my switch from a pro-choice to a pro-life position. How right wing-extremist of me, right?
Also you should know that my interest in Tiller goes far back beyond this event. I have long been following his criminal activities and first wrote about him back on January 3rd, 2007 in an essay title, “Tiller the Baby Killer.” So when was the first time you had ever heard of Tiller and the laundry list of allegations against him?
Also, you imply that this is only relevant to me because it was an abortion doctor that was killed. Well of course! But not just because it was an abortion doctor but because it was the infamous Tiller! If this had been a run of the mill abortion doctor the only thing you would have heard coming from me would be adamant condemnation for the killer. So, would you have had any interest in this story if the killer were not a right-wing “religious zealot nut job?” rather than some ex-lover? Hell, that’s just crazy right? You see there are two stories here and neither should be glossed over with accolades about what a great dad either of them were.
Finally, I hope you know that I was not just responding to your original essay but your subsequent support for Tiller following your initial essay. Of course this brings us back to the questions you forgot to answer:
Should my opposition to abortion my personal faith and the fact that I am a veteran require that I be placed on some DHS watch list?
Do you disagree with Obama’s statement, “Now, I don’t think that ‘mental distress’ qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term” or do you personally believe that women should justly have the right to abort a baby at any time and for any reason? What specifically is your stance on late term abortions? When should they be allowed or disallowed?
Do you believe that Tiller was performing the very types of abortions that Obama spoke against? If so was he committing murder?And to top it all off I have a new one since you re-enforced the Democratic motto, “we all hate abortions.”
Why specifically do you hate abortions? If there is no prospect that a child in the womb is a human life deserving of human rights under the laws of man and nature, why would there be any grief over such a decision? What makes the decision to have an abortion any different than the decision to have a pap smear?
You might find that answering that last one is a bit more difficult than simply saying “we all hate abortions.” Political marketing campaigns and slogans are often that way.
I look forward to your response, brother!
Are you advocating for gov’t control over women’s reproduction and gov’t intervention to protect POTENTIAL life?
If so, (I assume yes) what does your religion say about how to administer such laws and policies?
Would your Lutheran Church accept Tiller as member?
I noted from my research, there are some Apocalyptic Lutheran denominations. Apparently your doctrine can be construed by informed people as apocalyptic.
Who determines the proper interpretation of your Bible stories?
btw: Next time you speak to your God, please ask him why he hates women so much and family rights too.
Oh yea, and tell him you need him down here on earth to help you show the world that he agrees with you. Please also ask him to explain Leviticus.
Love
CLiff
- chilli
Rich – I agree with nearly everything you have written. The resposes from Jason lately have been suprising, and on this post disappointing. I cant take Cliff seriously when he posts a letter of recommendation from the Southwest Regional Carpenters Association on his blog stating what a nice guy he is. Dont tell Cliff that Jesus was a carpenter.
Chilli,
Personally, I am waiting for the dialog over abortion between Conservatives and Liberals that Obama has so regularly promised. Where is the common ground that he speaks of? If we can’t agree that abortion On-Demand for a child at 8.5 months in the womb, the type that Tiller regularly performed, is wrong then I can’t see where common ground can be found! Oh yeah I forgot, “we all hate abortions!” Well we know why conservatives hate abortions, how about a single opinion from the left on the subject that doesn’t include religious intolerance.
Yeah for you Chilli. You agree with everything RO says. You go GIRL!
Lets be clear you and Okelberries are as culpable for Tiller’s death as anyone. Your conditional morality places you firmly in the camp of militant pseudo religious FREAKS.
- chilli
Cliff, there are few places on the planet (except maybe the vatican) with a higher concentration of “freaks”, I question why you would want to stay here in Utah? If you really wanted to engage in productive dialogue with the other side (you want to change the world for better, right?) you should grow up, and quit patting yourself on the back. Right now all you are doing is grandstanding. You and Jason both are succumbing to what I call the Olberman agenda, its when you spew unrelated hate to distract people from the fact you have little idea what you are really talking about. Good luck with that. And as far as conditional morality? You support abortion at 8.5 months, but playing Metallica to a terrorist is torture. Democrats call for 10 years in jail to anyone who inadvertantly kicks a cat, but put george tiller up as your new party martyr, he’s your hero, who’s next, Stalin? It looks like it, The U.S. now has more CZAR’s then Russia did. I think you guys are a little confused.
Chilli, Thanks for reminding me of the high freak concentration in Utah. You must be referring to The Church.
Lets be clear. Its not the Mormons. Its you religious zealots who are freaks.
I’m not asking you to leave Utah. I’m just asking you to keep your religious views to yourself. Can you do that for me and for our democracy?
Richard,
Religious tolerance does not mean codifying every self-proclaimed religious tenant and asking everyone else to live by your rules.
Religious tolerance DOES mean however, keeping you religion to yourself.
There will NEVER be a discussion about abortion between the left and right.
The only discussion you need to have is to what extent you will allow women a greater level of independence and individual rights that your average Sharia tribe.
- chilli
No Cliff, this was about a “doctor” pulling a viable fetus out of a woman
and killing it before it could take its first breath, over 60,000 times.
- Redge
I mean you know you are all ideologues right?
You aren’t opening conversation, starting a dialogue or anything productive, you are just simply bloviating about what you deem to be true, and trying to convey your moral superiority to the other.
But truth is, you are embarrassing yourselves.
Grow the hell up and try to relate to each other as human beings, So I don’t have to read this schlock.
Gad.
- Grumpy
Redge,
Good (very good) point, but poor delivery. 4 out of 5 stars.
Its not a pleasant thing. Its a hard reality. Thankfully, it’s none of your business.
Chilli, Its not a pleasant thing. Its a hard reality. Thankfully, it’s none of your business.
Redge,
I truly try to take time and respond to everyone who has a comment about one of my essays. In your case since you have failed to add anything to the debate, all I can do is add your attempts at insult to those that have come before you. It appears that now I am a Bloviating Right-Wing Extremist Tea-Bagger Zionist Apocalyptic Ideologue. Does that about cover it? Have I succinctly summarized the entire Liberal postulation on this subject? Considering that we have only had a handful of respondents to this thread, that is quite a list!
- Grumpy
“Does that about cover it? Have I succinctly summarized the entire Liberal postulation on this subject?”
Easy there Rich. That high-horse may be inhibiting your consistent attempts to avoid gross hyperbole and generalization.
- Redge
I have about the same leanings as Klosterman on this issue which can be summed up as: I don’t have an opinion on abortion. I really, truly do not. You want to have an abortion? Fine; take my car keys, You think abortion is murder? Well, you’re probably right. Who knows? Either way, it doesn’t have anything to do with me.
Just when Chili, Cliff, and Okelberry get into an online pissing match, try not to get any on my KVNUFTP.
Extremist ideologue, yes. But you’re too smart to be a tea bagger, Rich.
Redge,
That absolutely must by the most tritagonistic response I have ever read on this subject or to be quite honest any subject. Congratulations! Do you mind if I use it as an example in future writings on this subject?
Jason,
Well, I guess that makes two of us! At least we can still share a beer at the Owl from time to time
National | Richard Okelberry June 2, 2009 | 
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